tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23400750.post1733123192859602064..comments2023-11-03T11:32:01.540+00:00Comments on Thought Experiments : The Blog: Discuss 1Bryan Appleyardhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08276787058430388582noreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23400750.post-8136665329148448732009-10-29T18:40:37.726+00:002009-10-29T18:40:37.726+00:00Hello, Marvin. I am completely baffled as to why y...Hello, Marvin. I am completely baffled as to why you think this makes you look foolish. I thought it was a very important an challenging statementBryan Appleyardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08276787058430388582noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23400750.post-63004344948260804662009-10-29T18:20:18.238+00:002009-10-29T18:20:18.238+00:00Mr. Appleyard's "quotation" deleted ...Mr. Appleyard's "quotation" deleted my first few words, which are: "Chapter 9 will argue that ..." See my original statement at http://web.media.mit.edu/~minsky/Introduction.html<br /><br />You can find the text of "Chapter 9" at <br />http://web.media.mit.edu/~minsky/eb9.html<br /><br />I think it was rude to make my statement seem foolish by deleting the Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16060413825327593864noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23400750.post-44554759215450664692009-10-29T17:11:32.750+00:002009-10-29T17:11:32.750+00:00If I regard myself as a complex machine, I have co...If I regard myself as a complex machine, I have complex and varied capabilities.<br /><br />If I have complex and varied capabilities, then I have a wider variety of ways to respond to various situations. That is, I have more resources, and I know it, which is to say that I am resourceful and competent, moreso than if I was a simpler machine.<br /><br />If I have this wider variety of ways to Rus Bowdenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08412920154921512774noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23400750.post-20974318026842206792009-10-28T01:48:47.686+00:002009-10-28T01:48:47.686+00:00I think the problem lies in putting the two words ...I think the problem lies in putting the two words "complex" and "machine" together. <br /><br />I can happily agree that everything we learn about our complexity increases our self-respect and sense of responsibility. <br /><br />But the metaphor of the "machine" - which as has been pointed out "cannot be self-directed, but must be directed by something externalMike Lowehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05693188015988775586noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23400750.post-50242622077738945832009-10-28T00:06:37.384+00:002009-10-28T00:06:37.384+00:00As to the 'machine'; since, by the very na...<i>As to the 'machine'; since, by the very nature of it being a machine, it cannot be self-directed, but must be directed by something external to itself, how is it possible for it to have a 'self' to respect?</i><br /><br />I agree with Recusant.<br /><br /><i>Our present model of the world is a fiction, based on notions of objectivity and of the character and implications of Michael Smithnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23400750.post-83867645678025347502009-10-27T17:03:30.589+00:002009-10-27T17:03:30.589+00:00"'Tis a great shame that Minsky failed to..."'Tis a great shame that Minsky failed to observe that materialist ontologies--if they ever made sense--were somewhat undermined (to put it mildly) by early 20th century developments in Physics."<br /><br />Good heavens, physics has found some soul stuff and nobody told me!John Meredithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15634174504496610198noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23400750.post-53976655434577258262009-10-27T16:38:40.788+00:002009-10-27T16:38:40.788+00:00It is entirely possible that every action we take ...It is entirely possible that every action we take is the result of the interaction of every event since events began. Therefore no free will & no morality (& no quantum mechanics?).<br /><br />To invoke free will is to invoke a metaphysical entity. Which does not mean it doesn't exist.trahernehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03554983022190670978noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23400750.post-54312940065029816512009-10-27T13:48:24.529+00:002009-10-27T13:48:24.529+00:00Chris - ok, science has moved on; but what has the...Chris - ok, science has moved on; but what has the new science offered to take the place of materialist ontologies? Mystery upon mystery is all very diverting, but I'm not keen on it as a personal philosophy.caolasnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23400750.post-24694369175713454532009-10-27T12:51:48.229+00:002009-10-27T12:51:48.229+00:00Let's compare the statement with its obverse:
...Let's compare the statement with its obverse:<br /><br />"Just because we have souls and free will need not lead us to believe we're anything special or give us cause to feel responsible for anything we do."<br /><br />Hmmm...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23400750.post-5265193676578245152009-10-27T12:29:26.779+00:002009-10-27T12:29:26.779+00:00Do any other machines feel self-respect and an enh...Do any other machines feel self-respect and an enhanced sense of responsibility? On a semantic level, isn't Minsky's trying to put a weight of meaning and connotation on 'machine' that the word can't bear? <br /><br />We're either exclusively machines, as we understand them, or exclusively capable of feeling self-respect and an enhanced sense of responsibility. The Gareth Williamshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05058241057385364459noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23400750.post-34266449009758154912009-10-27T11:49:24.652+00:002009-10-27T11:49:24.652+00:00Hmmn, if I say I am a "complex machine" ...Hmmn, if I say I am a "complex machine" I am still looking at myself as a discrete entity - an ego - with a past, present and future. But supposing this is an illusion? MM may be taking a new angle, but it is an angle on the same old view of personality that's been with us for aeons, I'd have thought. I wonder whether it will continue to hold up. So much of our culture is based Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06074816573442173758noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23400750.post-41135507888986696802009-10-27T10:49:01.558+00:002009-10-27T10:49:01.558+00:00'Tis a great shame that Minsky failed to obser...'Tis a great shame that Minsky failed to observe that materialist ontologies--if they ever made sense--were somewhat undermined (to put it mildly) by early 20th century developments in Physics.<br /><br />I know you like Marilynne Robinson Bryan. From <i>Facing Reality</i>.<br /><i>Yet we have put together among ourselves a rigidly simple account of life in the world, which we honor with the Chris Dornanhttp://senseorsensibility.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23400750.post-4126582449463589582009-10-27T10:04:16.127+00:002009-10-27T10:04:16.127+00:00Why would a complex machine need to develop feelin...Why would a complex machine need to develop feelings of self-respect? Do machines feel just as insecure as we do?Pete Bhttp://www.a419.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23400750.post-13509284943382940362009-10-27T09:42:13.908+00:002009-10-27T09:42:13.908+00:00As the statement is made by Metal Mickey man Marvi...As the statement is made by Metal Mickey man Marvin Minsky it emanates from his world, dictated by his perspective, another example of theory at odds with practice, the statement is pointless.maltyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02936465848907794425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23400750.post-46162807648045760922009-10-27T09:41:24.396+00:002009-10-27T09:41:24.396+00:00This is a good example of the kind of ex cathedra ...This is a good example of the kind of <i>ex cathedra</i> declaratory pronouncement a sage can get away with because it corresponds to what everybody very much wants to believe. That it doesn't hold up philosophically and indeed undercuts pretty much everything else the sage has ever said requires either sophisticated debate or uneducated simplicity to see, so as long as it is just thrown out Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23400750.post-59014906810273267152009-10-27T09:21:34.440+00:002009-10-27T09:21:34.440+00:00You have a point Brit, but, in the end, hard mater...You have a point Brit, but, in the end, hard materialism ends up eating itself, whereas free will doesn't.<br /><br />As to the 'machine'; since, by the very nature of it being a machine, it cannot be self-directed, but must be directed by something external to itself, how is it possible for it to have a 'self' to respect?Recusanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11446741817585462393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23400750.post-88524077693147217962009-10-27T09:13:09.947+00:002009-10-27T09:13:09.947+00:00I would imagine that's what it's about, Wo...I would imagine that's what it's about, Worm. I tend to think that, on balance, there being no Ghost in the Machine shouldn't affect things too much. <br /><br />As to free will, would love to help you, Bryan, but it's just a dilly of a pickle. Every fibre of one's being rejects the idea that hard materialism rules out free will, but unfortunately it does seem to, and all the Brithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00390560583798960760noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23400750.post-77776622412107628962009-10-27T08:55:14.754+00:002009-10-27T08:55:14.754+00:00why would regarding myself as a complex machine di...why would regarding myself as a complex machine diminish my feelings of self-respect?<br /><br />or is the word 'machine' meant in a derogatory way, with the antithesis being 'soul'wormhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02802335627720182532noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23400750.post-29193992267462557342009-10-27T08:35:37.998+00:002009-10-27T08:35:37.998+00:00Marvin was bitterly disappointed to recieve his re...Marvin was bitterly disappointed to recieve his rejection letter for the post of Daily Mail Agony Aunt.Ian russellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11106519805045337505noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23400750.post-53330698903661679622009-10-27T08:32:48.101+00:002009-10-27T08:32:48.101+00:00The Royal Society preparing their christmas cracke...The Royal Society preparing their christmas crackers already?Ian russellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11106519805045337505noreply@blogger.com