tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23400750.post2280590161691646584..comments2023-11-03T11:32:01.540+00:00Comments on Thought Experiments : The Blog: The Suppression of HistoryBryan Appleyardhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08276787058430388582noreply@blogger.comBlogger22125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23400750.post-59404350331867398612008-07-04T15:16:00.000+00:002008-07-04T15:16:00.000+00:00"If intervening in Iraq was a strategic blunder, w..."If intervening in Iraq was a strategic blunder, what would have been the purpose of non-intervention? What would have been the strategic purpose of a continuation of the standoff with the regime of Saddam Hussein, the sanctions regime with its horrific human toll on Hussein's subjects, and the disastrous and corrupt oil for food program?"<BR/><BR/>Well, so far it's resulted in the death of Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23400750.post-55179831872852646222008-07-04T09:31:00.000+00:002008-07-04T09:31:00.000+00:00Bryan, we still await a demonstration of your know...Bryan, we still await a demonstration of your knowledge of the concept of "paragraph". :)James Highamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14525082702330365464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23400750.post-81849180047902500432008-07-04T08:52:00.000+00:002008-07-04T08:52:00.000+00:00Duck has it.Bryan has a valid point that politicia...Duck has it.<BR/><BR/>Bryan has a valid point that politicians can use 'history will prove me right' as an occasionally dubious justification for doing unpleasant things. <BR/><BR/>But that's the most Bryan can say. Talk of 'strategic blunders in Iraq' is meaningless if his own main argument is to stand.<BR/><BR/>I was pro the Iraq invasion in a least-worst-option kind of way because I couldn't Brithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00390560583798960760noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23400750.post-35856698807069747522008-07-04T02:26:00.000+00:002008-07-04T02:26:00.000+00:00History rhymes.History rhymes.Frank Wilsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18410473158808750903noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23400750.post-44114294076190864082008-07-04T02:15:00.000+00:002008-07-04T02:15:00.000+00:00One can easily imagine Bush writing off the catast...<I>One can easily imagine Bush writing off the catastrophic strategic blunders in Iraq as mere trifles when seen from 50 years hence.</I><BR/><BR/>If you are going to ignore any future calculation of the intervention in Iraq, then in what sense can you call it a catastrophic strategic blunder? You can't make any claim to strategic thinking without taking a long view. If intervening in Iraq was a Duckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08852569465893563139noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23400750.post-26147342783228154542008-07-04T00:26:00.000+00:002008-07-04T00:26:00.000+00:0050 years is not the county of the historian, surel...50 years is not the county of the historian, surely it's yours. But we are allowed a fun comment now and then. <BR/>Your blueish crane should be elected to the Boris seat. <BR/><BR/>Huurp<BR/><BR/>1, bloody paaagaens(98%)<BR/>2, realy they have money, real money. Well OK then(100%).<BR/>3,Irish with money or just a bloodyminded Irish with a army sreak- Welsley-.....<BR/>4, A little Amerrcan will Vincehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09442327549417743472noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23400750.post-46773089426839228692008-07-03T20:32:00.000+00:002008-07-03T20:32:00.000+00:00History should above all else teach us the lessons...History should above all else teach us the lessons of human frailty, it may not be perfect but has anyone come up with a better teacher, can you say that the human race has advanced so far beyond the mistakes of it's past that it can, without any referral, make sound judgment.<BR/>This is not about politicians, it,s about us, our daily intercourse with our fellow man, fuck politicians, when push maltyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02936465848907794425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23400750.post-32022571715497701792008-07-03T18:28:00.000+00:002008-07-03T18:28:00.000+00:00just to dissent here - "neo-con" is just a euphemi...just to dissent here - "neo-con" is just a euphemism for "conniving Jew (or their lackeys)."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23400750.post-92153098021240994302008-07-03T13:51:00.000+00:002008-07-03T13:51:00.000+00:00Historical absolution, of the kind George Bush is ...Historical absolution, of the kind George Bush is fond of, is either hubris or an excuse for failure. In his case, it is hard to tell which it might be. Could it be both? Anyway, given that losers don't write history, as a rule, I would guess George is in for a hard time in the next few decades with the way world power is shifting.Neil Forsythhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00240393170374161007noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23400750.post-71439358946846361172008-07-03T13:48:00.000+00:002008-07-03T13:48:00.000+00:00The best predictor of the future is the past. This...The best predictor of the future is the past. This is why we study history. Unfortunately, history usually tells us more about now than then because no one can transcend their era and all historians writing now are living now. And when we read them decades later, we see them through *this* lens of now. <BR/><BR/>It's a conundrum, sans doute, but I think I see history as Elberry does. If it were Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23400750.post-13777633277458677182008-07-03T12:55:00.000+00:002008-07-03T12:55:00.000+00:00Even individual history is unreliable, i only reta...Even individual history is unreliable, i only retain sketches of what i did yesterday.<BR/>If i write it down in a diary it becomes an interpretation or even a fabrication of what happened. Ditto criminal witnesses who often unwittingly distort and bend past events. History is one great subjective fog.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23400750.post-20850511865385865422008-07-03T12:26:00.000+00:002008-07-03T12:26:00.000+00:00The David Starkey quotation is here (the last item...The David Starkey quotation is <A HREF="http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1031314/When-Harry-upset-Chelsy---again.html" REL="nofollow">here</A> (the last item in Richard Kay's column) and includes another answer to the question What do you call a collection of "historians" invited by Gordon Brown to dine with George Bush?Dave Lullhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01053227199985293516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23400750.post-36452480217985458002008-07-03T11:34:00.000+00:002008-07-03T11:34:00.000+00:00Bryan,I was taught historiography first when I wen...Bryan,I was taught historiography first when I went up to university. That was great for encouraging critical thinking, except that when I tried applying it to the then current crop, I wasn't very popular. Starkey was very fresh back then and no doubt helped me choose the subject. <BR/><BR/>I'd say the counterfactualists are bringing something fresh now, and from what I can see tie the subject Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23400750.post-66567411055126885172008-07-03T11:20:00.000+00:002008-07-03T11:20:00.000+00:00Here they are -Simon Schama - A History of Britain...Here they are -<BR/><BR/>Simon Schama - A History of Britain<BR/><BR/>Alistair Horne - A Savage War of Peace<BR/><BR/>Valmai Holt - Major & Mrs Holt’s Battlefield Guide<BR/><BR/>Max Arthur - Forgotten Voices series<BR/><BR/>Piers Brendan - The Decline and Fall of the British Empire<BR/><BR/>Linda Colley Britons - Forging the Nation, 1707–1837<BR/><BR/>David Cannadine - The Decline and Fall of theGeorge Streethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14935308467947775528noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23400750.post-87277263167016253282008-07-03T11:08:00.000+00:002008-07-03T11:08:00.000+00:00What is 'bar-room history' then, Chris?Is the friv...What is 'bar-room history' then, Chris?<BR/><BR/>Is the frivolous application of the term 'holocaust' an example?Brithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00390560583798960760noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23400750.post-83246440650285964752008-07-03T11:00:00.000+00:002008-07-03T11:00:00.000+00:00"This is linear thinking."I think what you are rea..."This is linear thinking."<BR/><BR/>I think what you are really having a pop at is the Whig view of history. Or what would now, no doubt, be called the Progressive view. Absolute claptrap of course, what with its essential belief that history is a story with a happy ending.<BR/><BR/>We Burkean types like our history, if only so we can understand the foundations of our current position. With that Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23400750.post-27345757153788957722008-07-03T10:25:00.000+00:002008-07-03T10:25:00.000+00:00Absolutely right Bryan on both points. History is...Absolutely right Bryan on both points. History is far too important to be trivialized, and it offers to much temptation to bar-room historians to use it to reinforce their own ignorance.<BR/><BR/>Your point about Bush and all the neocons is spot on too--including Blair, of course. They keep pushing this idea that their holocausts and blasting of the ME to smithereens will all look different in Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23400750.post-70796906334532747392008-07-03T09:47:00.000+00:002008-07-03T09:47:00.000+00:00i prefer to think that things move in spirals; the...i prefer to think that things move in spirals; the same situations recur but so differently that you can't reliably predict what will happen. The most your past knowledge achieves is a sense of recognition, e.g. "this reminds me of such-and-such a chapter in Thucydides". Occasionally it is some use, i think, but it can also be misleading if one supposes the present situation is essentially Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23400750.post-77649720680686531222008-07-03T09:41:00.000+00:002008-07-03T09:41:00.000+00:00Ah thanks, George, straight from the coalface. And...Ah thanks, George, straight from the coalface. And, Brit, of course, you are right. But forward thinking has to be done with full knowlegde of how wrong it is likely to be. The one thing you can always say about the future is that it will be unprecedented.Bryan Appleyardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08276787058430388582noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23400750.post-78105640960080475752008-07-03T09:37:00.000+00:002008-07-03T09:37:00.000+00:00I have just finished marking 540 A Level scripts. ...I have just finished marking 540 A Level scripts. I'd be happy to see it suppressed.George Streethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14935308467947775528noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23400750.post-26389943761125191132008-07-03T09:20:00.000+00:002008-07-03T09:20:00.000+00:00It's an interesting take Bryan, and the legacy obs...It's an interesting take Bryan, and the legacy obsession justifying short-term mistakes is a great insight...<BR/><BR/>...but surely the strongest thing you can claim is that history is a double-edged sword. You can't argue that all long-term forward thinking is wrong per se.Brithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00390560583798960760noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23400750.post-41080946395247814402008-07-03T07:44:00.000+00:002008-07-03T07:44:00.000+00:00Right you are - I'll just nip across to Amazon and...Right you are - I'll just nip across to Amazon and cancel my Andrew Marr DVD...Ian russellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11106519805045337505noreply@blogger.com