Wednesday, November 04, 2009

Discuss 10

'Moderates by definition have no principles.'
Posted by Bryan Appleyard at 7:23 am

16 comments:

  1. WillardNovember 04, 2009 9:11 am

    Yet another misrepresentation of the conservative ideal by the ever strident and ideological right.

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  2. BritNovember 04, 2009 9:17 am

    Damn right. Principles are mostly a terrible idea (I say 'mostly' because I am mostly a moderate).

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  3. RecusantNovember 04, 2009 9:21 am

    I have principles. He has opinions. They are wrong.

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  4. maltyNovember 04, 2009 9:50 am

    So, Ghandi was unprincipled , Gerry Adams is highly principled. Curious.

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  5. MarkNovember 04, 2009 9:50 am

    Hmmn, if that quotation had come from Einstein, say, and related to the stuff of the universe, then we'd probably think little of it: just a way of saying that equilibrium is an illusion, no more than a brief pause before the true nature of things - chaos and violent polarity - reasserts itself.

    But from this source? Fanatics and their black-and-white views. These boys are a real headache all over the place and in the end it's usually all about them (as Maureen Dowd so well points out). Yuck.

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  6. AnonymousNovember 04, 2009 10:49 am

    Very wrong and very dangerous. Moderates have principles, extremists have ideologies. There is a good argument that the stability, success and decency of Anglosperic countries rests on the fact that they have more of the former than the latter.

    If you follow doctrinaire left-wing or right-wing blogs, it doesn't take long before you learn they share the view that everyone in between is feckless or stupid.

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  7. UnknownNovember 04, 2009 2:12 pm

    While Limbaugh may be using hyperbole to make a point, in the context of American politics (whence this comment derives), it is more true than not that moderates generally lack a set of thoughtful convictions that guides their decision-making in the voting booth.

    Particularly in this 'hope & change' era of mountainous deficits, runaway government spending and the inexorable ceding of basic liberties to the state, if, as a voter, you cannot figure out which side you are on, you might not be unprincipled, but you are clueless.

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  8. Gareth WilliamsNovember 04, 2009 3:25 pm

    Definitions in principle can have no moderation.

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  9. MattFNovember 04, 2009 3:46 pm

    Yeah, well. Today's Maureen Dowd column deals with Limbaugh on the appropriate level-- OxyContin, pot, kettle, black, etc.

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  10. JonNovember 04, 2009 5:29 pm

    I believe in free speech; I believe libel is a crime. One principle opposes the other, so by their definitions my principles make moderation a necessity.

    Leaving aside the "I'm only saying it for the sensationalist reactions" aspect of commentators such as Limbaugh, the problem with non-moderates is their unwillingness to deal with complexity.

    I would say Limbaugh is correct to the extent that there are those who are moderate because they do indeed lack a strong sense of principle. But this is different to those who believe living a moral, principled life is going to involve dealing with situations where - at least superficially - those principles appear to contradict each other.

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  11. AnonymousNovember 04, 2009 5:41 pm

    Bit extremist, that, Jeff. We may have to ask Bryan to put you in moderation.

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  12. Ken PidcockNovember 04, 2009 5:54 pm

    Jeff, I disagree. First, as to the inexorable ceding of basic liberties to the state, show me the executive orders and legislation. Great talking point, though. Works, apparently.

    Second, though, an American fiscal conservative would be hard pressed to figure which side she should be on. While they controlled two branches, Republicans presided over unprecedented levels of federal spending. And now they promise No, no, no? Bah.

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  13. Rus BowdenNovember 05, 2009 2:38 am

    Here's a page with the transcript: Free Republic: Dede Scozzafava Screws RINOs [Rush Limbaugh]. And here is the first paragraph of Limbaugh's attempt at diatribe:

    RUSH: How about Dede Scozzafava? You know what? Dede Scozzafava has just screwed every RINO in the country by showing everybody who they are. It's what I say about radio, people say, "Rush, does it matter AM, FM?" No, no. Content, content, content, content. Content determines what people will listen to, and in politics, principle, principle, principle. Moderates by definition have no principles. They're wishy washy. A typical moderate is Lindsey Grahamnesty. A typical moderate. They're all over the place. They go with the flow. They think of themselves first. They are not guided by principle at all, and Dede Scozzafava has just delivered a teachable moment for those who lack a keen sense of the obvious. RINOs cannot be trusted. Republicans-in-name-only cannot be trusted. They aren't principled. You vote 'em into office and you're going to get cap and tax, you're going to get some version of Obamacare, you're going to get tax increases, you're going to get TARP bailouts, you're gonna get amnesty.

    One problem Limbaugh is having, is that he is targeting all moderates as unprincipled. When all he's done is disagree with a couple of moderates in particular.

    Where the statement gets closest to being right is that different moderates will have different positions on different issues. If we gave all the people a conservative versus liberal test, asking for positions of left or right on 100 issues, it is possible to have pairs of moderates who are each split 50/50, and some 35/65, but disagreeing with each other on each of the 100 questions--and therefore being in more agreement with both liberals and conservatives than some of their "fellow" moderates. Only the extreme conservatives and extreme liberals are well-defined by their principles. Yet these two groups are at risk of being tagged as programmed, groupthinking followers. However, they would make good talk show hosts, to learn the lines to parrot no matter what the issue. They also make easy-to-figure politicians.

    I would rather turn Limbaugh's statement around to say, "Moderates by principles have no definition." I am a radical moderate.

    Yours,
    Rus

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  14. Peter BriffaNovember 05, 2009 8:58 am

    He's broadly right. Centrists can have principles, but moderates only have one: to bustle along, seek out power via compromise, and practise "the art of the possible".

    I suppose you could argue that "the survival of the human species" is one principle they wouldn't sacrifice, but then, what if our ant overlords came a knocking?

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  15. Rus BowdenNovember 05, 2009 1:00 pm

    It is possible that a moderate, like anyone else, would be someone who would take a less extreme version for the sake of compromise. But a moderate may also hold to his moderate position uncompromisingly or on principle. If there were no one on the extreme left or the extreme right, moderates would be as likely as anyone to form an independent and thoughtful position on any given topic.

    For the best thinkers in any of our three categories, they use various "leftist" and "rightist" (if we must polarize) thinking to approach a problem and find the best solution. Honest liberals approve of the left position most often, and honest conservatives the right. Moderates are more apt to go through the thought process rather than adhere to a group's position or accept a position from a knee-jerk reaction. But having done the thinking through, a moderate is more like to be in a position to moderate for consensus among the knee-jerk extremists.

    Liberals and conservatives may also seek power versus compromise. In fact, their "principled" views in the first place may have been made to garner political power. If one were to be a politician, the best approach would be to compromise moderate positioning and throw one's hat in the ring, declaring oneself a conservative or liberal. I imagine that many conservatives who listen to Rush Limbaugh do so in order to find out where they stand on the issues. Many liberals listen in from time to time to find out where they don't.

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  16. AnonymousNovember 05, 2009 7:59 pm

    Moderation is a principle, but not a very sexy one. That's the trouble. A favorite quote from Theodore Dalrymple:

    "Few people are so attracted by moderation that they are converted by it."

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